Diving Deep with Super Dungeon Designer's Lead Programmer

During my time at the Portland Retro Games Expo, Portland Indie Game Squad hosted a myriad of unique indie games with developers based in the PNW. Among these, I got to try out a game I thought only existed in my dreams. Super Dungeon Designer is a Zelda-inspired dungeon builder where players can create their own dungeons and share them with other players. I sat down through Discord with Thomas McGrath, Lead Programmer at Squish Studios, and asked him about the thoughts, ideas, and inspiration behind the game.

SUPERJUMP

Could you provide some background on who you and your co-developer are and your background in game development?

Thomas McGrath

Hey, I'm Thomas McGrath, I'm an indie game programmer from Portland, Oregon. I started making games as a kid using a pirated RPGMaker and any free tools I could find. I was just fascinated by the process of making games, how some simple rules could lead to interesting outcomes, and being able to craft experiences for others. I have a Bachelor's in Game Programming from UAT and have been trying to make games for a living for about ten years now with varying success. I've been doing game jams with PIGSquad since 2019 and around that same time, I joined up with Squish Studios to work on Super Dungeon Designer.

Squish Studios was founded by James Richards, another UAT alumni who used to stream Mario Maker and had wanted a Zelda-Maker for some time. After getting a couple of games under their belt the studio decided to try their hand at a Zelda-maker, and I joined the project about a year in.

Squish currently consists of:
James - Studio Head and Game Designer
Matt - Creative Director and Lead Artist
Thomas (Myself) - Lead Programmer
Benny - Lead Sound Designer
Kelly - Artist
Sanjay - Programmer
Shawn - Marketing
Jess - Events

SUPERJUMP

I want to start by saying this is a game my friends and I have been dreaming of! What inspired you to make a Zelda-style dungeon designer?

Thomas McGrath

The initial idea came from James, who is a huge Zelda fan, a Mario Maker streamer, and was fed up waiting for Nintendo so decided to try his hand at it. For me the project has been a deep dive into a lot of the things I love about game dev and is an opportunity to share those with others! I love the problem-solving that comes from making something, it's never easy but the solutions can make you feel incredibly clever. To be able to design a set of tools that give that ability to players is such an awesome feeling.

"For me the project has been a deep dive into a lot of the things I love about game dev and is an opportunity to share those with others!"

Thomas McGrath
Lead Programmer

SUPERJUMP

What's it like having a game available in Early Access? Do you think this can change player perspectives as opposed to releasing the game in its entirety?

Thomas McGrath

There is a large portion of our audience who seem to be waiting for the full release of the game to pick it up. Early Access means bugs and some players would rather not deal with an unfinished product. The players who are playing it now give us vital feedback on areas that still need work and are helping to build a huge catalog of levels before launch. I think it's a win for almost everyone doing it this way, but that might not be the case for every game. I do think there are some players who are going to burn out before we launch as updates can be slow and bugs will test our player's patience, but I hope they still enjoyed their time with the game.

SUPERJUMP

Were there any features from the Mario Maker series that you wanted to implement into this game?

Thomas McGrath

Something I'd really like to copy is Mario Maker's ability to stack things and essentially combine them. This is such a powerful and complicated tool but is so intuitive and has so much to discover about it! That said, translating mechanics from Mario to Zelda is really tough because of the fundamental difference between a physics side-scrolling platformer and a top-down puzzle game. We can't rely on gravity and momentum like Mario can, so the gameplay is entirely different. However, build mode has seen a lot of influence from Mario Maker! We are constantly finding ourselves double-checking our UX against Mario Maker to ensure our game is just as intuitive yet powerful.

SUPERJUMP

What was the most valuable feedback you think you heard or observed from PRGE?

Thomas McGrath

We've been to PAX West for the last three years and PRGE the last two. It's amazing how much fun people have with the game and so fulfilling. The first couple of years I was actually making bug fixes on the show floor as we saw people running into bugs. I'd go back to my hotel, get all the loose ends tied up, and we'd have a new build for the next day. It was very stressful, but I loved it. Luckily this year the game has been pretty stable, and I've been able to sit back and enjoy watching people just play. Except during the fire alarm! That was a bit tense.

"The players who are playing it now give us vital feedback on areas that still need work and are helping to build a huge catalog of levels before launch."

Thomas McGrath
Lead Programmer

SUPERJUMP

When watching players create their own levels, are there any common design choices you notice? Is there a favorite player-made dungeon that you've seen?

Thomas McGrath

Kids love to just fill a room with monsters and then try to survive the onslaught; it's a laugh every time and they're obviously having so much fun doing it! But it's really cool to see someone pick up the tools, play around for a few minutes, and then there's this light that turns on in their head when they realize the possibilities the game offers. 'Kill all enemies in a room' and 'Pitfall/Poison Mazes' show up pretty often, but it really does feel like every level is unique. There are so many good levels uploaded at this point it's hard to pick a favorite, but I love the ones that do things I'd never expect, like set up branching paths with different endings or a difficulty selection system! If you only played one level though, I'd recommend Castle of the Chromatic King! Adam spent months on it, and it shows! The level is able to demonstrate so many different mechanics but does so with such good pacing, plus it's pretty to boot!

SUPERJUMP

When creating the game, how flexible is it to go from dungeon designer to giving those resources to the players?

Thomas McGrath

One of the fundamental aspects of the game is that the dungeon editor is the same for the devs as it is for the players. This means anything we want to do in a dungeon has to be available to the players! Making all these tools intuitive and making all the objects work in any configuration has been a huge challenge but it's also been incredibly satisfying to collaborate on together and come up with the amazing toolset we have now.

SUPERJUMP

To close out the interview, what's your favorite Zelda game?

Thomas McGrath

Minish Cap, I love that game! Plus, the GBA was such a good era, the audio and color palette are so nostalgic for me.

Thanks to Thomas and the team at Squish Studios for this interview. We have published a ton of great interviews here at SUPERJUMP: be sure to check 'em out!