Digging for Cards: An Interview with Chloe Charlotte

Those who attended the Portland Retro Gaming Expo this past September remember how incredible the event was. Plenty of vendors and artists, arcade cabinets galore, a pinball alley the likes of which I'd never seen, and who could forget the Saturday afternoon fire alarm?

When the alarm went off and everyone had to evacuate the building temporarily, I was in the middle of my best run yet in an indie game called Retromine. This turn-based mining-themed deck builder sees the player going through 10 expeditions in which they have to use their cards to raise their score to proceed to the next expedition. Players can also collect ore that acts as currency to spend between expeditions. After spending days following the expo trying over and over again to beat the final expedition, I sat down with the developer, Chloe Charlotte, to ask her about her experience in game development, playing deck builders, and working with PIGSquad as a community.

SUPERJUMP

Can you give us a little background about you and your history in game development?

Chloe Charlotte

Yeah. My name is Chloe Charlotte. I'm 23 years old. I'm a game developer from San Diego, but I'm based in Portland right now. I moved here about a year ago. I've been interested in video games, and I've wanted to make games ever since I was a little kid. I kind of dipped my toe in here and there throughout the years, but I never really took it seriously. Around high school and college, I got a patchwork education in programming, art, and music. So, after I graduated college last year, I decided to put them all together and take the plunge and learn game development for real. So earlier this year, in March of 2024, I started taking it very seriously, and I've been doing game development for about eight hours a day.

SUPERJUMP

What first really impacted you that made you want to start making games?

Chloe Charlotte

Oh, my gosh. I don't know. I was actually one of the first 1,000 copies of Minecraft that ever got sold. It's the best-selling video game ever made. It was just a crazy coincidence how I ended up finding the game. I even have an email that says, 'Oh, you were one of the first 1,000 copies from 10 years ago' or whatever. And at the time, it was this incredible game, and I was really young, and I was playing it with all my friends, and it was made by only one developer. I thought that that was so cool. I was also really into Roblox as a kid. So I started playing games on there, and that was big on encouraging kids to learn game development. And ever since then, it clicked for me, and I've just been obsessed with it.

SUPERJUMP

I've been hooked on Retromine since I played it at Portland Retro Gaming Expo. I've been playing it at least a little bit every day because it has numbers go up and it's really fun. But I saw at the end that you made it for the PIGSquad June Summer Slow Jam. What made you want to build a deck builder as your submission for that Slow Jam?

Chloe Charlotte

I'm so glad you're enjoying it! That's awesome. I'm a huge deck-builder fan, actually. When I saw the theme was resource management, the initial idea that I had was, how about a game where you play cards to gather resources, and then you spend those resources to get more cards? That was the initial seed that the rest of Retromine grew out of, basically.

SUPERJUMP

What was it like balancing Retromine? Are there any strategies that you found worked best to get to the end, or is it just play-by-feel?

Chloe Charlotte

The balancing was the most important thing and took the most time during development because basically the process of balancing the game... you know, these big companies gather data about their players and all that stuff, and they use that to balance the game, but I don't have the ability to do that. So, the process of balancing the game for me was just playing over and over and over and over and over again for hours and watching other people play the game for the first time, as well as asking them about maybe their level of deck builder experience. 'Have you ever played any deck builders or have you played some deck builders? Are you a huge deck-builder fan?' And then watching them play and seeing, okay, this player has this level of experience, and this player has that level of experience, and they're having trouble with the game, or they're finding the game too easy. I was most concerned with the balance between the cards. So, when you see the cards in the shop, the choice isn't immediately obvious which one would be the best. And the costs of the cards and tweaking the number is like, oh, this card should give you five and this card should give you two scores, and this card should draw two, and this card should cost this much energy.

But the most important concern for balance was tweaking the difficulty curve, where the score you need ramps up every round successfully; it's challenging for experienced players, but also people who have never played a deck builder before are not completely put off by the game. The game is designed in a way where hopefully, ideally, we have to react to the cards that the shop gives you. So, there aren't any strategies that you can force every game because maybe I just won the game abusing the drill card, but I didn't even get offered a drill card this round. So how do I win? As for tips on how to win, I would say probably keeping a thin deck. So, buy lots of Dynamite and scale only a couple of cards.

SUPERJUMP

It's funny you say that because I don't think that I've used the Dynamite once.

Chloe Charlotte

Really?

SUPERJUMP

I have a little bit of experience with deck builders. It's really just that I played TCGs like Magic: The Gathering, and then I really liked Inscryption when that came out. But what I would do, I never got the Dynamite. Once I got used to the learning curve of the game, I would buff three or four of the ore to get them to three or four points, and then I would build it up from there.

Chloe Charlotte

Got you. That's good. I really want to keep the balance between the ore and the score so you need both.

SUPERJUMP

I think it took me a while, but it definitely became necessary that I needed to get more ore. So, I was actually hoarding my resources because for a while I was just ignoring it. But then I was like, hey, can I buy more cards because I'm not getting to where I need to be.

Chloe Charlotte

Totally. 

But the most important concern for balance was tweaking the difficulty curve, where the score you need ramps up every round successfully; it's challenging for experienced players, but also people who have never played a deck builder before are not completely put off by the game.

SUPERJUMP

Over the past few years, we've seen a handful of really popular deck builders come out, like Slay the Spire and Inscryption. How did those games influence the design decisions for Retromine? Were there any other games that weren't deck builders that inspired your design?

Chloe Charlotte

I'm a huge, huge deck builder fan, so I played all the popular video game deck builders, and I played a lot of board game deck builders as well. Have you heard of the board game Dominion?

SUPERJUMP

I’ve heard of it, but I haven’t played it. 

Chloe Charlotte

That was actually the biggest inspiration for Retromine. And that's one of the OG deck builders that led the foundation for the genre. I really, really like that game, and it was probably the biggest inspiration for Retromine. So that's a board game where you have two to four people, right? It's a multiplayer game. And I feel like the multiplayer aspect of that game actually doesn't add much at times and even takes away from the game at other times. So, I was like, what if I could take that rapid deck-building gameplay of Dominion where you have 10-to-15-minute matches, but I could combine it with this zen, solitaire-like resource-gathering gameplay? And that was a huge, huge inspiration for the game. 

SUPERJUMP

How much influence did TCGs have on your approach to Retromine, if any at all?

Chloe Charlotte

I actually have not played any trading card games beyond some Pokémon and Magic: The Gathering when I was younger. But it was really interesting because I had a lot of people at the Expo, they come up to the booth and they're like, oh my gosh, a deck builder. I love Magic. I love Pokémon. So, it's really interesting seeing people who are more familiar with trading card games interface with my game and seeing where the experience overlaps. Do they understand the scaling, the drafting, stuff like that? Because some mechanics are present, and some mechanics are not.

SUPERJUMP

On your itch.io page, you have another game called Retrodungeon. Were there any design choices from that game that resonated with Retromine’s design?

Chloe Charlotte

Totally. I made Retrodungeon as part of the July Jam, so, I was fresh off making Retromine when I made Retrodungeon. And I wanted to explore a lot in the same art style. That was my number one concern. So, in those two projects, I actually keep the color palette, and the sprite dimensions, and the font, and a bunch of stuff exactly the same between the two projects to keep them visually cohesive. But of course, they're two completely different kinds of games.

After Retromine, I wanted to be more ambitious and increase the scope when I made Retrodungeon, but that ended up being a huge lesson learned for me. Definitely learned to keep it small and keep it simple and keep that scope down as much as possible, because I feel like part of why I think the reason Retromine's balance turned out so good is I had a lot of spare time at the end of the project before the deadline to just play Retromine over and over and over to balance all the cards and the difficulty. But Retrodungeon, I didn't have time to balance the spells or the enemies as much.

SUPERJUMP

Are there any other projects in the Retro series that you want to make with that same art style or similar design choices?

Chloe Charlotte

I would say, simultaneously, a big yes and also a big no. Because I found a style that I really like in terms of gameplay and in terms of art style. But at the same time, I'm still pretty new to game development, so I don't want to make the mistake of, oh, I fell into a style and a formula too hard, too early on. So ever since, in my personal projects, I've been trying all sorts of different art styles and gameplay styles just to see what sticks, just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what comes back. So maybe in a future game jam, I would revisit the art style, but maybe I combine it with a new gameplay style, or I keep the same gameplay style, but I combine it with a new art style. I'm not quite sure. I think probably when I see the prompt, I'll just make a decision right then.

So, I was like, what if I could take that rapid deck-building gameplay of Dominion where you have 10-to-15-minute matches, but I could combine it with this zen, solitaire-like resource-gathering gameplay?

SUPERJUMP

How has your time designing these games influenced how you play games?

Chloe Charlotte

Oh, it's influenced it so much. I've been trying really hard to train my designer's eye. That's been one of my number one priorities as I'm growing as a developer. So, it's been difficult because it's like this switch that you can't turn off. It's like once you turn it on, you can't get it off. So, whenever I'm playing a game now, I'm thinking about it in terms of design decisions that the developer made. Why did they make this number this way? Or why did they respawn the character right here when they could have done it over here? Why does this gun have this many bullets when it could have this many bullets? Or why does this card look this way? I'm always thinking about what can I take from that experience of playing other people's games, and what can I learn from those games, and how can I apply them to my own games. It's definitely affected a lot. It makes it almost more difficult to enjoy indie games because I start thinking about how they are made, and I can't turn that switch off. But when I'm playing a AAA game, it's so far out of the scope of something I could ever make that it makes it easier to turn that switch off.

SUPERJUMP

Do you have any examples of a recent game where you felt like the switch was easier to turn on or off?

Chloe Charlotte

Totally. I'll say one AAA game that I really like is Overwatch, and I play that pretty often. And it's just so far beyond the scope of anything that I could ever achieve as a single developer that I don't look at Overwatch and think, how do I make this? But recently, the game UFO: 50 came out. It's just a compilation of 50 tiny games. When I'm playing that game, I'm thinking about, oh, if I made a game like this, what would I do differently? What would I do similarly? What did they do right? What troubles did they maybe run into when they were designing this game? And it's almost difficult to play that game and not think about it that way. So definitely, game development has changed how I play games a huge amount.

SUPERJUMP

What’s your favorite UFO 50 game? I haven’t bought it yet, but I’ve been looking at it and a lot of the games look really cool. 

Chloe Charlotte

My gosh, I love Party House so much, which not to sound like a broken record, but it's the only deck builder in UFO: 50. I love it so much. But I also really like Quibble Race, which is like an alien horse racing game. And I love Pilot Quest, which is like an idle game fused with like, Zelda.

SUPERJUMP

So, you said you were from San Diego, but you’re based in Portland now. How has your time in Portland and work with PIGSquad impacted your game developer journey? 

Chloe Charlotte

My God, it's been amazing. Like I said, I only moved here 11 months ago. I think next month will be a year. But I love it here so much, and it feels like home for sure. It feels in a way like the PNW, Seattle, especially is the Hollywood of indie game development. It's like they have to put something in the water here because there are so many amazing games that are made here, and it's so inspiring with the nature and the mountains and the amazing people here. So, I definitely love it here. Working with Pig Squad has been just an incredibly key part of my game development journey. They've helped me grow as a developer so, so much, and they provide this amazing community to talk to other like-minded people. I've met so many cool people through them, and they've provided me with so many opportunities already, just in the short time that I've been participating in PIGSquad events and going to PIGSquad events. So, they've been so key.

SUPERJUMP

What brought you from San Diego to Portland?

Chloe Charlotte

My girlfriend lives here. We were long-distance, and she moved to San Diego to be with me, then we were chased out by the high cost of living after I graduated school, and we decided to move back here together. It’s also just been my dream to live here because I visited a lot to Seattle and Portland for a variety of reasons. 

Why did they make this number this way? Or why did they respawn the character right here when they could have done it over here? Why does this gun have this many bullets when it could have this many bullets? Or why does this card look this way?

SUPERJUMP

What’s your favorite deck builder?

Chloe Charlotte

I’ve sunk a million hours into Slay the Spire. I even have this super cute figurine of the character The Silent from that game on my desk in front of me right now. I feel like I’d be remiss to say anything but that is my favorite game. My favorite deck builder at least. 

SUPERJUMP

Are there any special shoutouts to anyone who’s helped you on your development journey?

Chloe Charlotte

Oh, my God. I don't know. I'd probably have to thank my girlfriend the most for playing all my trashy games before they're any good. I have to thank PIGSquad for giving me the opportunity to actually finish and publish my first game and all the cool people that I met there.

SUPERJUMP

Final question: What’s your favorite card that you made in Retromine?

Chloe Charlotte 

Well, in terms of... I'd have to split it in two in terms of art and in terms of gameplay. So, my favorite artwork's probably a cave bug. Everyone thinks Cave Bug is so cute, so I'd have to say that's my favorite art. But as for gameplay, there's nothing more satisfying than just hitting a resource deposit with a drill and just instantly winning the round.

A special thank you to Chloe for participating in this interview. Retromine and Retrodungeon are both available for free on her itch.io page here.